What is the epistemological principle of traditional medicine?

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Akshay S Dinesh

7 Sept 2023, 15:38:4507/09/2023
to Mfccircle
Quoting Ritu Priya from the earlier thread:

In my understanding, the present establishment TM discourse is not even serious about the epistemological principles of the system they propagate, only moulding it to the modern and commercial interests. 

What is this correct/serious/real epistemological principle of traditional medicine? Can anyone share? Ritu?

I'm asking in the context of application of Artificial Intelligence to Traditional Medicine. I'm well versed with the epistemological principles of one of those things. But not the other one.

Please clarify.

ASD

Akshay S Dinesh

14 Sept 2023, 09:43:5814/09/2023
to Mfccircle
How do we substantiate allegations of epistemic injustice until we talk about what the epistemology of traditional medicine is?

On the internet I'm unable to find many people talking about it. (Of course there are plenty who say the epistemologic foundations are different and diverse, but not many who can say what it is).

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1208428.pdf for example (filled with words I don't understand), but has this line in abstract: "The study concluded that the originative epistemic medium for African traditional herbals are non-conventional, involving Intuition and Conjectures
and refutations always facilitated by plant communication, however, testimonial, perceptual and memorial
seemings are secondary sources. In addition, their epistemological theory is twofold that is, Malebranche’s
theory and bucket theory of mind."

What does that even mean? Can someone tell me in simple words what is the epistemic injustice in refusing to fund research into homeopathy and most of Ayurveda as practised today?

ASD

ritupriyajnu

14 Sept 2023, 11:35:5214/09/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Dear Akshay,

The epistemological principles of various knowledge systems lumped under TM or AYUSH are varied, though they would have overlaps with each other, and also with 'Modern' Medicine.
So that could be a long story, to be engaged with more seriously if one is interested. 

I am attaching an article that may help in some ways, but also open up more questions!

I am also using this opportunity to share an extract from another article that attempts to illustrate what all issues the politics of knowledge can address. It is from the article titled .... from the edited volume Dreams of a Healthy India: Democratic Health Care in Post-COVID Times:

I don't know if this is helpful in some way, but I will be happy if it is.

Best,
Ritu


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RP and CMK 0971721818762937.pdf
Extract on Politics of Knowledge RPDreams of a Healthy India.docx

Prateeksha

14 Sept 2023, 13:22:2414/09/2023
to ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Akshay, and Ritu (ji) among all other friends of MFC

I do not feel I have the capacity to contribute much to zestful debates about anything because to sit on my computer is also I have to ration my resources to spinal issues. However, for the longest I wanted to share something about homeopathy since Akshay, in your stance of dismissing/challenging others, I find a certain epistemic certitude about your own school of thought, which as it is enjoys a position of epistemic hegemony in society thanks to pharma corporations.

I am not certain whether I am able to locate the idea of epistemic injustice in this context even though I engage with the  theorization a good deal in my writing and work. As I have understood it, the knowledge claims of a person about themselves, when they are not believed and tided over by another, who has epistemic/social privilege, amounts to epistemic injustice. It has two components: testimonial and hermeneutical injustice.

I would like to share two things from my writing, one in the context of homeopathy (because I personally use it for myself nowadays) and secondly the efficacy of so-called "modern" medicine (which is not modern at all) and the effect of drug treatments, on those who live in complete surrender to its claims of treatment. What I am sharing are two appendices from my (recent) book. The first appendix (C) shares the story of a person who was given a schizophrenia diagnosis and maps her experiences after a span of more than three decades of taking medication. The next appendix (D) is about homeopathy. 

Rest assured I am one of those people who continues taking support from whatever system of medicine I need, the least from allopathy (confined to BP medicine when necessary). I think the whole debate about epistemology of a particular system cannot be engaged in one-sidedly without due representation of people who are well versed in each of them. The lack of research funding, substandard infrastructure and systematic demonization of entire schools of thought because it helps establish the dominance of certain interest groups are extra-epistemic concerns which cannot be seen as incidental. 

Please take a look at what I have written and feel free to engage further. However, please note I can only speak about what I have written, I am not here to defend homeopathy, only vouch for its efficacy for myself and many others who I have supported, and continue doing in our efforts to help people wean off psychiatric medication. The person whose story is there in Appendix C is a committed loyalist, who cannot break her bond with allopathy no matter the downward spiral she is on. 

The issue is not epistemic injustice, but epistemic plurality and whether we can claim democracy without a accepting that people can have other ontologies, beyond our own (comprehension as well) and they can be equally valid for them.  As an educated, democracy-committed lot we need to ponder whether there is a need to snuff them out, who we do not understand in our "superior knowers'" positions.

Thank you for your patience 
Prateeksha Sharma, Ph.D.   
Psychotherapist . Musicologist
WhatsApp: +91-9811.91.6060
New publications: 
Sharma, P. (2023). Barriers to recovery from psychosis: A peer investigation of psychiatric subjectivation. Routledge. 

In this video I am in discussion about my book.

Sharma, P. Navigating voices, politics, positions amidst peers – resonances and dissonances in India. In Beresford, P.,and Russo, J. (eds)The Routledge Handbook of Mad Studies - Critical international perspectives on doing Mad Studies. Abingdon: Routledge






 ā€œThe wise man gladly leaves fame to others. He does not seek to have credited to himself things that stand accomplished, but hopes to release active forces; that is, he completes his works in such a manner that they may bear fruit for the future.ā€
― Hellmut Wilhelm, The I Ching or Book of Changes 
 


   
 





Appendix C.docx
Appendix D.docx

jagchat01

14 Sept 2023, 15:16:0714/09/2023
to Prateeksha, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Thank you Rituji and Prateeksha ji for your efforts.

Studying holistic medicine is easy if one is not carrying the baggage of allopathy. However there are many allopaths, including a childhood friend, an ophthalmologist of my city, and an MD of my State, who have studied and practiced with elan.

The present day doctors are not troubled by disease so long there is a treatment plan. The diagnosis and  treatment are everything. The cause and outcome are never researched with integrity. Sending the patient home with a life long prescription "after recovery" does not raise eyebrows.

So long as disease is accepted, and disease management considered science, the interest in cures will not arise. Holistic systems aim to keep people healthy and cure the sick. Cure; not palliation of symptoms.

It is only when you have the responsibility of understanding health and of actually curing a person that your intellect is stimulated enough for you delve deep and are confronted with those very things that are brushed away as confounding and quackery.

The holistic systems do not look upon the living as physical bodies. Their approach is aimed at the environment, inputs, outputs, emotions, mind, energy, spirit, and beyond. They go into the interconnectedness of things. They study health, the ways the body falls sick and how it heals itself. To cure you have to step into the invisible and immeasurable. Here the tools are the doctors self preparation, mind, intuition, education, and experience.

This does not mean that the holistic sciences are spooky. They are very very well structured. African medicine is shamanism. Systems like naturopathy, ayurveda, acupuncture and acupressure, homeopathy, and Siddha are not. If one has the interest and intent to study, one can easily understand their principles.

At present the approach is designed to subjugate using the oneupmanship approach. The intent is to belittle and condemn. This cannot be called a scientific approach by any means. 

The scientific approach was demonstrated by those allopaths who wanted to prove Hahemann wrong. They studied the Organon, the principles of medicine, the materia medica, and the repertory. Then they applied the remedies as per the principles. They were amazed at the results and became full time homeopaths. Similarly they also became naturopaths, herbalists, energy healers, and chiropractors. They were interested in their patients wellbeing.

Reform in the medical structure is not easy. It is difficult to tackle the system where there is stupendous conflict of interest and go beyond the shenanigans of the pharma giants. To break this stranglehold sincere practitioners must quietly and without bias study what holistic medicine is.

Personally I was a die hard reductionist. I opened up to holistic systems only  when I stared at complete incapacitation and death. I was also alarmed by the threats I was subjected to when I pointed out the obvious cause.

But this need not be the case. Holism is both interesting and extremely rewarding. For me, it has enabled me to extend my life by 44 years so far. It has also helped me to help others. Holism opens up the path to self development. Both the practioners and the patients gain from it.

Medicine is about altruism. If the efforts are instead leading to disease, disability, and death then it is ones responsibility to change track. Otherwise we invite infamy. History will never forgive us if we continue on the path and do not contribute to health and cures.

Regards,

chinusrinivasan.x

15 Sept 2023, 07:22:2415/09/2023
to Prateeksha, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Dr Prateeksha: I look fwd to reading your chapters. Interesting for me.

Chinu

Prateeksha

15 Sept 2023, 18:05:4415/09/2023
to chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Chinu: Thank you for your interest. I am not a medical doctor like (perhaps) a majority of you in MFC but that in no way is a measure of my curiosity about life, and the ethics of care. I am concerned about the goals of treatments and their claims. Perhaps a foundational issue is whether it is the person who suffers or the system of medicine that is anyone's concern. Depending upon our choices to this question rest all will follow.
Regards to you

dhrvmankad

16 Sept 2023, 04:45:5516/09/2023
to Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Dear Prateeksha, 

You may find the attached paper interesting!

Dhruv

DOC-20230915-WA0003_230915_192902.pdf

chinusrinivasan.x

16 Sept 2023, 08:42:0816/09/2023
to dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Thanks. Paper looks interesting.

Chinu 

Akshay S Dinesh

16 Sept 2023, 11:00:5016/09/2023
to dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Thanks Ritu, Prateeksha, and Dhruv for the attachments. I will take a while to go through them and understand them.

Till then I just have one clarification for Prateeksha — this debate, continuing from the previous one titled "Traditional Medicine in India: Less About Medicine, More About India" and the one before that titled "Orthostatic Hypotension" arise from a misattribution of the problems of healthcare to "modern medicine" rather than blaming it on capitalism and/or globalization (as you tend to concur with your attribution of the problems to pharma corporations). Thus there's an impression created that there's something inherently wrong about science and the scientific method. This is amply demonstrated by Jagannath Chatterjee's responses and also, as Rakhal recently shared with me, the book Prophets Facing Backward might be talking about how this directly leads to Hindu Nationalism, etc. 

In the previous thread Sanjay Nagral and Arun Gadre raised the practical concerns with this academic philosophy, Indira Chakravarthi highlighted how this binary characterization is wrong for modern medicine as well as much as it is wrong for traditional medicine, and Kiran Kumbhar also asked 4 pointed questions about reality. All of these have gone unanswered.

As far as I'm concerned, this debate ended right then — whether or not people in mfc noticed it.

ASD

rakhal.gaitonde

16 Sept 2023, 15:58:3216/09/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Dear All,

These emails are very absorbing....and thanks so much Prateeksha for sharing these and writing these.

@Akshay debates in mfc are never over and meander along picking up strength and cooling off ..... but thanks indeed for threading in all the relevant debates.....

I am not addressing in this email Indira's and Kirans thought provoking emails which Akshay refers to  - but want to address just one statement made by Akshay - "...a misattribution of the problems of healthcare to "modern medicine" rather than blaming it on capitalism and/or globalization (as you tend to concur with your attribution of the problems to pharma corporations). Thus there's an impression created that there's something inherently wrong about science and the scientific method".

There are actually a number of different strands that I think are being brought together, and that is confusing things I think -

1) Science is continuously evolving - what is being referred to as "the scientific method" is actually evolving - even concepts of replicability, and statistical significance and the hallowed Randomised Controlled Trials - are being questioned as the one size fits all - solutions to the search for the truth.
2) The incentives for science to produce certain products for which particular methods are the best is influenced (determined??) by capitalism and the incentive architectures of the current models of corporate led governance. Thus indeed not only are the products of science expropriated, but the way in which science is "allowed to grow" (refer to Prateeksha's comments about funding and resources) is also affected - and hence one may consider the "scientific method" or at least the current accepted (dominant?) version of  scientific inference is thus distorted as all possibilities are not allowed to be followed up in reality.
3)The power of these forces "sides" with science (which is doing their bidding) to actively suppress other imaginations, forms of knowing or indeed coo-opts them (like the present market driven Ayurveda)

Thus, as a scientist I will use the best science I have at my disposal - but never refer to it as "the" best - just as the most recent iteration (that indeed has shown to be successful in a number of aspects), and even as I accept the findings of my experiment / research I am eagerly (and responsibly) reflecting on the pieces of evidence that do not make sense, the experiences, the feelings the emotions....and interrogating my science to see if I can learn something from the experiences that will help me build a better version of the scientific method. I will definitely also question the distortion of science by capital, patriarchy, caste, race, and I do that with my tentative latest iteration.....

"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto", or "I am human, and I think nothing human is alien to me." (signing off in Latin for good measure 😊 )...of course in todays times it would be nothing is alien to me......

warm regards,

rakhal

Virus-free.www.avast.com

dhrvmankad

16 Sept 2023, 16:32:4516/09/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Dear Akshay, 

I suggest if the questions are consolidated and circulated for specific responses, the debate would be rekindled and carry on.

Dhruv

Akshay S Dinesh

16 Sept 2023, 17:25:5016/09/2023
to rakhal.gaitonde, dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Dear Rakhal,
I agree that the debates in mfc are never over. But unfortunately, I don't think it's something to be proud of. Most of what's happening here is repetition of the same points without understanding or progress. For example, I don't know where this insistence of equating science with RCTs comes from. (More on that below) If the debates are evolving and getting more and more nuanced, that would be much appreciated.

Why do I keep posting here then? Because I've not lost hope in reason and scholarship. And I have been proved right by you sharing Meera Nanda's book. The book you suggested has given me a very clear explanation of where you, Ritu, et al are coming from.

I am attaching Meera Nanda's article in response to criticisms of their book, which I echo as it is (and therefore it is pointless to repeat it in my own words — anyhow I have been trying with my words till now).

I firmly believe that it is possible—indeed, necessary —to respect the rationality of science while holding it accountable. Here I find the distinctions offered by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont very useful. They offer four different meanings of the word ā€œscienceā€:
an intellectual endeavor, aimed at rational understanding of the world; a collection of accepted theoretical and experimental ideas; a social community with particular mores, institutions and links to the larger society; and finally applied science and technology. (Sokal and Bricmont, 1998, p. 202)

When I defend science as a ā€œlingua francaā€ of the modern world and emphasize its unfulfilled potential for secularization in India, I mean first and foremost science in the first sense of the word, as an intellectual endeavor. The unique features of this intellectual endeavor are described well by Alan Sokal in words which describe my own understanding of science very well: 
By science I mean a worldview giving primacy to reason and observation and a methodology aimed at acquiring accurate knowledge of the natural and social world. This methodology is characterized, above all else, by the critical spirit: namely, commitment to the incessant testing of assertions through observations and/or experiments—the more stringent the tests the better—and to revising or discarding those theories that fail the test. One corollary to the critical spirit is falliblism: the understanding that all our empirical knowledge is tentative, incomplete and open to revision in the light of new evidence or cogent new arguments (although the most well-established aspects of scientific knowledge are unlikely to be discarded entirely). (Sokal, forthcoming)

Of course, science as an intellectual endeavor operates within the messy here and now of social-political institutions linked to powerful business and military–industrial interests. That is to say, science is the first and second senses are not insulated from science in the third and fourth senses, above. But to say that they are interlinked is very different from saying that they are inseparable or co-constructed. The problem that Sokal, myself and other critics of science studies have been exercised about is how science studies reads all the undeniable problems at levels three and four (i.e. social institutions and uses of science and technology) into the levels one and two (the world-view and methods). It is not so much the critique of science we object to, but this disregard for distinctions between context and the content, uses and the logic. This total critique of science is self-defeating, because in order to protest against the worst excesses of science and technology, it demolishes the very possibility of impartial evidence which is needed for intelligent, evidence-based public policy intervention in controlling the uses of science and technology.

To return to Raman’s critique, when I talk of the worldview of science as the lingua franca for the modern world, I am by no means suggesting that we close our eyes to the possibility of distortion of the worldview and even content of science, nor am I suggesting that any new application that results from well-attested scientific theories (e.g., the Green Revolution) must be automatically given the seal of approval. All I am suggesting is that we critique every aspect of science and its applications while retaining and respecting a qualitative distinction between the social and the epistemic, the context and the content. In the absence of such a distinction, science becomes politics by another name. I realize that the distinction between the social context and the logic of science is seen by many as not ā€œradical enoughā€. But I believe that radical politics requires that we refrain from being too ā€œradicalā€ in deconstructing science into its social context."


And everything else in that 2005 response by Meera.

Dhruv, there's nothing in the debate to be rekindled and carried on. It is all adequately answered in the book Prophets Facing Backward. And in the article attached Meera writes a in  response to Turnbull which explains why this is a stalemate:

Epistemological relativism, Turnbull argues, is not a luxury but a necessity forced upon us by the realization that there ā€œthere does not exist a fixed universal set of standards of logic, rationality, truth and methods that are sufficient to choose between competing knowledge claimsā€  Science studies, he argues, has shown that all these protocols of good reasoning and rules of evidence which we thought were universal are actually co-produced by specific knowledge traditions. Echoing the Strong Programme, Turnbull argues, since we all approach nature through ā€œsocially and culturally inflected…ontological assumptions about space, time, agency, subjectivity, causality, structureā€¦ā€ we are ā€œirredeemably stuck in the meshes of our own ways of knowing and actingā€. Because there is no position external to these meshes of our own ways of knowing and acting, we have no choice but to accept that there are many forms of knowledge, with none claiming any special privilege.

But is it really true that we have, today, no position external to our own local ways of knowing? Is that really true that we have, today, no criteria for choosing better or worse methodological rules and/or ontological assumptions than those supplied by our own cultures? Is that really true, today, that to choose between contradictory epistemologies amounts to erasure or suppression of non-Western cultures and that all we can do is to celebrate them all? 

But the existence of transcultural knowledge is a fact of our lives and has been since the beginning of the modern era of industrial (and yes, colonial) capitalism. The constantly evolving and growing methodological conventions and conceptual categories of modern science do provide the vantage point outside of any one particular local culture from which the adequacy of traditional epistemologies can be judged. Because social constructivist critics like Turnbull believe that no knowledge can ever break free from the social cultural context of its origin, they treat this fact of transcultural knowledge as one more piece of evidence of Western ways of fact-making masquerading as universally valid method. 

I, on the other hand, believe very strongly that the universality of modern science can be philosophically grounded in the universal human interest in acquiring reliable knowledge. Let me explain:

I am sure that those who, like Turnbull, admire the wisdom and ingenuity of local traditions in solving empirical problems will agree to at least this much: regardless of whatever else might motivate their search for knowledge, all people have an overriding interest in acquiring knowledge that is reliable, in the sense that it can help in controlling and predicting the forces of nature. Undoubtedly, this pragmatic interest in manipulating nature can become the dominant ideology in some cultures under some circumstances, while it remains covered with religious taboos and superstitions in other cultures in some circumstance, leading to problems in both cases. But one can agree that it is an interest shared across cultures. If we can agree upon this minimal motivation for science, we can safely say that following the methodological conventions and values of modern science (e.g., choose those theories that pass more stringent tests, assume naturalism, do not invoke forces that are in principle unobservable to explain empirical phenomena) is a preferable way to conduct inquiry in all cultures. Cultures with different ontological categories can still agree on methodological rules of science, because all cultures have an interest in reliable knowledge, and science has a proven track record of picking out reliable knowledge more often than other ways of setting up inquiry.

The tragedy is, as I have tried to point out in the Prophets, that while even the most remote cultures in the world are becoming adept at using technologies that embody the reliable and dependable knowledge produced by modern science, the rules of method of science are not being applied to test the efficacy of traditional epistemologies or the validity of traditional ontologies. This has created a situation where highly destructive technologies are put at the service of religious passions which are being justified in vocabulary of ancient faiths and local knowledges. A defense of localism and multiculturalism in this context can only fan the flames.

So, my response to Turnbull is that we are not ā€œirredeemably stuck in the meshes of our own ways of knowing and actingā€. Turnbull’s preference for localism is his choice, not a necessity imposed upon us by the necessarily ā€œco-produced nature of all knowledgeā€. (Indeed, the kind of complete intertwining of nature and culture that Turnbull is buying into was a characteristic of pre-modern societies. For more on the subject of co-construction, see my comments on Helen Verran, below.)

In my opinion, Turnbull’s support of a worldview which allows ā€œcelebration of pluralism and incommensurabilityā€ is not productive. Take, for example, his insistence that multiple (though unspecified) ontologies of different cultures are resources for finding solutions to the problems of global warming. I fail to understand how different understandings of causes and mechanisms will actually contribute to the solutions which, in addition to all other socio-economic reforms, will require scientific-technical  solutions. How will different ontological schemes actually help us understand the real mechanisms are actually working to raise the temperature here on earth?

It is pretty clear to me that Ritu, et al do not view this "science" as universal. When the disagreement is so fundamental, there is no point in asking pointed questions about the practical challenges of epistemological egalitarianism or the contradictions in that philosophy. Prophets Facing Backward talks about this too. The challenge is that everything I ask will be considered as "one way of looking at it". Thereby the preachers of this philosophy can always be above others, and never have to answer any questions.

ASD

nanda2005.pdf

Prateeksha

16 Sept 2023, 18:40:5416/09/2023
to dhrvmankad, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Dear Dhruv,
Thank you for a most excellent piece of writing, which makes it clear what the science of medicine is and I quote from the same

"Following the reflections of Tecla JimĆ©nez [4], medicine is not conceptualized as a science in itself, but
rather as the set of knowledge, techniques and skills derived from different disciplines, including the humanities
and social sciences, whose purpose is of study and work for the human being from the point of view of the
health-disease process, a process that cannot be reduced to the biological or the social, since although its
determinants are social, they include the biological as well as the spiritual. "

I just began reading the article and appreciate how beautiful and significant this statement is. If we do not see the person in their entirety it defeats the purpose of any intervention anyways, as perhaps we may all have seen in scores of fields of medicine. To believe that a particular school of medicine is science and the rest are voodoo or lack any scientific basis is ignorance, for science is a quest for truth. Whether we seek that truth in the pathology of a person, a society or any bigger reality, the quest is also premised on the idea that truth is important enough for us to give up or at least question our existing theories in the light of newer findings, or  question the  truth we believe as definitive.

I am grateful for your sharing and I will now read the other contributions on this thread and see if I have anything further that appears on my mind. Or, I may have to postpone that response, for another day as I have a writing due for submission almost now!

Thanks again and regards 

Prateeksha Sharma, Ph.D.   
Psychotherapist . Musicologist
WhatsApp: +91-9811.91.6060
New publications: 
Sharma, P. (2023). Barriers to recovery from psychosis: A peer investigation of psychiatric subjectivation. Routledge. 

In this video I am in discussion about my book.

Sharma, P. Navigating voices, politics, positions amidst peers – resonances and dissonances in India. In Beresford, P.,and Russo, J. (eds)The Routledge Handbook of Mad Studies - Critical international perspectives on doing Mad Studies. Abingdon: Routledge






 ā€œThe wise man gladly leaves fame to others. He does not seek to have credited to himself things that stand accomplished, but hopes to release active forces; that is, he completes his works in such a manner that they may bear fruit for the future.ā€
― Hellmut Wilhelm, The I Ching or Book of Changes 
 


   
 




On Sat, 16 Sept 2023 at 04:45, Dhruv Mankad <dhrvm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Prateeksha

16 Sept 2023, 19:02:2816/09/2023
to dhrvmankad, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Akshay: I am going to read Meera Nanda's article carefully  and even upon a glance I find some of her ideas problematic. The question is not whether there is one or more ways of looking at problems and solutions. The question is the condemnation of other ways of looking and the foisting of one way as the dominant way, by marginalizing every other. The solutions offered by so-called science have already brought us to the brink of all sorts of ecological and systemic annihilation. Do you really think this science is going to offer us a way out via the same path it has brought us here?

Rakhal: Thank you too, for there is something in each one's contribution worth pondering and perhaps we all continue doing so in our work, our writings, our reflections. There is a book I am currently reading of and on "True to Life: Why truth matters" (Lynch, 2005). Worth taking a look at.

Regards once again

jagchat01

16 Sept 2023, 19:59:4316/09/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, rakhal.gaitonde, dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Talking about medical science, at least it should have the objective of keeping people healthy. This is the basic that cannot be ignored. If this is ignored we enter the maze of fallacies.

When we view everything from the health viewpoint many things will become clear. If we are unwilling to shift our focus from disease to health, there will be swaying of opinion and debates will continue.

Health is an extremely simple subject. What today's brand of medicine has done is to make things very very complex. As a result we have unending theories. The entry of the powerful in the 18th century and the drastic steps after that have changed course and medicine has lost its way. We feel we need institutions. We feel we need seven to ten years in college. We feel we need to invest a lot of money. We feel that only chemicals work. We feel we need jargon. We feel we need complexity. But all that is superflous.

Health is in our hands. Common sense is within each one of us. If the wild animals can keep themselves healthy why can't we? Health is normal. Sickness is unnatural. We have a body and mind, we have society, we had a natural environment that provided the inputs. A knowledgeable family was the support system. It was the British and their idea of public health that decimated it. The WHO buried hopes of recovery.

I used to attend medical conferences when invited. I had sincerely hoped I would learn something. But I found them totally empty as they do not discuss health at all. Health and treatment are two different things. It is when you fail to maintain health, and you cannot recover on your own, that you need treatment. It is the last resort. And that treatment should lead to cures. The commercial conferences are another story.

I have left many a medical group because the members squirm when I start talking about health. Integrated medicine groups are better. There are many who, if not immersed in health, are frankly discussing the threats to health and stepping on subjects considered taboo. The menace is recognised and that is good. They need to know the nature of the threats because detoxification is the first thing they need to undertake. 

It is only in non medical health groups that all dimensions of health are discussed. The people in these groups do not have degrees but they have considerable knowledge on health and recovery. The knowledge is diverse as health is an individual need. In Covid times we have witnessed MD's joining these groups and adding to the knowledge base. Doctors like Thomas Qwan, Andrew Kauffman and others have contributed a lot as they have delved into the spirit of health.

I am on the core group of Robert Kennedy and that group has always been health focused. Many experts and professionals are in the group because of personal stories. It is sad that personal tragedies need to happen for people to start thinking about health. That club includes me.

Naturopaths are the best as they have the full scope and going through their articles and discussions is very fulfilling. However the amount of toxicity and mismanagement that has happened has queered the pitch. You cannot expect a person burdened with extremely toxic bodies and minds and multiple complexities to think about anything else except the world of technical wizardry. I escaped somewhat because I studied on my own and steered my own path.

Capitalism can step in only if there is scope for business. If the intent is health and the outcome is health, capitalism is automatically shown the door. We have to work towards it.

A medical degree is a burden. A full time medical occupation is a burden. We need volunteerism in this sector, sensitive and well meaning people with a keen interest on health working selflessly towards the welfare of the others.

We used to see that spirit in tribal communities. But thanks to public health the tribal population is at par with the others. Burdened with the rising rates of chronic disease they are losing their heritage and are at the mercy of the system. 

My book may be published in October. I have discussed a wide range of things without inhibition. I had sent the manuscript to many practitioners and, surprisingly, there have been many encouraging words. Perhaps things are changing.

Regards,

leila.caleb

18 Sept 2023, 10:37:0718/09/2023
to jagchat01, Akshay S Dinesh, rakhal.gaitonde, dhrvmankad, Prateeksha, chinusrinivasan.x, ritupriyajnu, Mfccircle
Dear Mfc members 

I have been following this debate with interest.
Quite tangential to this debate on Epistemological Principle of Traditional Medicine  but also relevant is -- whatever happens to the findings of Research reports - such as the one on Schizophrenia which was used as an example... what happened next ? Did the research institute share this within Govt i.e. Ministry of AYUSH, who takes up responsibility for dissemination  assimilation- or does it like modern medicine -lead to the big pharma taking it up for investment, further patent it and share in the market?  I am interested since Schizophrenia and other Mental Health Disorders research surely need more support.

regards,
Leila  
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amar.jesani

9 Oct 2023, 19:09:3809/10/2023
to Mfccircle
There is some interesting discussion going on among the ayurvedic doctors/scientists about the science of ayurveda in response to a reflection of an ayurveda professor we published in Jan 2023 (https://ijme.in/articles/confessions-of-an-ayurveda-professor/?galley=html). You may call this as churning within the ayurveda. Here are three pieces of interest published today:


Amar
________________________________
Amar Jesani
Independent Researcher and Teacher (Bioethics, Public Health), Mumbai.
Editor, Indian Journal of Medical Ethics (https://ijme.in);
Visiting Faculty: *Yenepoya (Deemed-To-Be) University, Mangaluru, India
Web of Science Researcher ID: AAD-2202-2020



On Sat, 16 Sept 2023 at 18:40, Prateeksha Sharma <merea...@gmail.com> wrote:

Akshay S Dinesh

9 Oct 2023, 20:43:2109/10/2023
to amar.jesani, Mfccircle
Thank you Amar for these responses, and the response to the responses of Kishor's article. I read the original article by Kishor with much interest because it validated many of my "beliefs" about Ayurveda. But when I wrote about it publicly, my first instinct was to point out how many of the things that Kishor accuses present day Ayurveda practice/education are equally true about modern medicine: https://twitter.com/asdofindia/status/1555633336470876161
I tried to elaborate this later in an article form which became a bit vague and wasn't accepted by IJME. But here it is published on the co-author's blog: https://akshaygn.ghost.io/were-not-teaching-medicine-well/

When reading the article by Karthik and Shajin I couldn't fail to notice that they're claiming that Ayurveda is positivist/reductionist just like modern medicine is claimed to be as evidenced by the following extracts: 
  • "The definition does not mention a single science, but rather puts forward criteria that can be fulfilled by validating and systematising any knowledge, not necessarily dismantling its methods, or replacing it with modern scientific logic", 
  • "It is known that efforts to understand the human body have started from the same point in Western medicine and Ayurveda, ie, dissection of the human body (Herophilus and Erasistratus, Sushruta)", 
  • "Ayurveda preferred the identification of commonalities between structures and functions and utilised them to understand physiology, harmonious functioning of the body and mind, illnesses, and their treatment. This led to a convergence; the properties and functions that coexisted most frequently were grouped together (to reduce complexity and facilitate expression) and were named depending on the agents in nature resembling these functions. The tridosha concept is its culmination. In most Indian theistic philosophical schools, such variables are said to be ā€œinferredā€ and they are considered existent (as they are felt through their effect on the manifest forms in the body). Such variables are termed ā€œlatent variablesā€ in statistics. Reduction of complexity of data in statistics is also done using similar methods as in factor analysis "
G L Krishna's article was incomprehensible. But there seems to be similar thoughts from a "positivist/reductionist" viewpoint:
  • "This equivalence might also be rewarding in its potential to generate new research questions of mighty impact: Does a high volume of the ejaculate indicate a preponderance of Y-carrying sperms?! Was Sushruta subtly pointing at this truth when he said that excess semen engenders a male foetus?!"

And then unsurprisingly, I agree wholeheartedly with Kishor's reply:

Epistemological dichotomy: a flawed argument
Many scholars tend to argue that Western science and Ayurveda are two epistemologically different yet equally valid and mutually exclusive systems. Their argument is that all Ayurveda theories in their entirety remain relevant and can be shown to be correct using Ayurvedic logic and Ayurvedic methods. They also suggest that viewing these theories from a Western scientific perspective is wrong.
The argument proposing an epistemic divide suggests that Ayurveda’s knowledge originates from Nyaya-Vaisheshika schools of philosophy, which is misunderstood as being epistemologically distinct from Western science. This perspective is flawed as the principles in Nyaya-Vaisheshika closely resemble those in contemporary science, differing primarily in the tools used—ancient scholars employed basic instruments while we now utilise advanced ones. For example, pratyaksha meant using the sense organs to acquire knowledge in ancient times, while we now use instruments such as microscopes for the same purpose.
It is essential to remember that when Ayurveda was documented, the research methods were still in their nascent stage. Ignoring this historical fact, some scholars such as Sandhya Patel and others [1: readers’ comments] went to the extent of indirectly proposing the ā€œepistemic superiorityā€ of Ayurveda. They argued that ancient rishis were able to obtain special knowledge through their divine powers. However, this logic fails because there are diverse and often mutually contradictory views recorded in Ayurveda on many topics. If such a phenomenon were true, such a situation should not have arisen [4].
In fact, this approach of proposing a ā€˜distinction’ has harmed Ayurveda in the name of preserving our tradition. This position essentially questions the universality of the scientific attitude and, more importantly, discredits all evidence-based science documented in Ayurveda textbooks [5]. This argument also overlooks the simple fact that not all methods are equally accurate and effective in drawing valid conclusions. It is akin to asserting that ancient scholars, who lacked microscopes, had hypothesised about ghosts causing diseases, and that these ideas are just as valid as modern microbiology.

This is similar to what Anant Phadke has written about these proto-sciences in the other thread. And also what I wrote about AYUSH earlier https://mbbshacker.blogspot.com/2018/09/why-jacob-vadakkancherys-arrest-is-best.html : " In that spirit, Ayurveda is a science. Or to put it more correctly, Ayurveda was a science. From the set of observations that could have been made centuries ago, whatever could be imagined was indeed science at that time. AYUSH is a set of outdated imaginations based on observations that does not include all that can be observed with the state of affairs right now."

---

But since none of these authors are using the words like "positivism", "reductionism"  and all of that, I'm not sure if they are aware of or "serious about the epistemological principles of the system they propagate". The people who seem to see more than just positivism and reductionism in Ayurveda seems to be mostly MBBS graduates like Ritu Priya and Rakhal. 

I met Unnikrishnan Payyappalli at Delhi last week. We had a 5 minute chat about this whole argument. UP briefly (with time constraints) told me about the three-level of "knowledge" in Ayurveda. I'm thinking it's the same as what's written about in https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5382818/ : "Tattva (principles) translating to Śāstra (theoretical constructs) and Śāstra translating to Vyavahāra (practical applications). Thus the whole system is designed to translate knowledge into action that is of benefit to society - lokānugrahapravį¹›ttaįø„ śāstravādaįø„.[2] In other words, the purpose of the Śāstra, especially in the context of medicine, is to improve quality of human life, and not to be confined within the limits of academic explorations. The three tier structure of the knowledge system of Ayurveda is aimed to ensure that academic insights get translated into practical applications."

UP also mentioned the basics of guna, dosha, etc to me. And UP also said that any "codification" of such ideas are imposed by a certain top-down imposition on practitioners and that practitioners should be able to use their own "intuitiveness" about this.

---

From my earlier interaction with R Srivats, I think there's a severe misunderstanding of what modern medicine is. Granted, a large number of modern medicine practitioners practice it in abominable ways. But there's a way to practice it just like how the "ideal" homeopath (as certified by Jagannath Chatterjee) or the "ideal" Ayur-vaid (as certified by whoever is Ayurveda expert here) might practice their crafts. After all they're humans who mostly do class 1 to class 12 in similar conditions. In that ideal practice, a modern medicine practitioner also does rely on the following:
  • Theory/principles of anatomy, physiology, and all the 20+ subjects in modern medicine.
  • Evidence derived from practice (where an RCT can be used to answer a very specific and narrow question, and various other methods can be used to generate various other evidence)
  • Clinician's expertise and subjective perception about the complex set of issues that is going on in an individual and what to do about these (drawing from the above 2 and general knowledge about the world).
By all means, I see this very similar to how Unni described knowledge in Ayurveda.

I don't see the epistemological principles of traditional medicine being any different from modern medicine. It is just that because they're now outdated, you'd need arguments like the "politics of knowledge" to justify embracing that past.

Having said that, I'm yet to read all the suggestions here. I'm reading Archie Cochrane's autobiography now as R Srivatsan argued earlier that Cochrane would laugh at my insistence that modern medicine is not about RCTs. So, more when I read all those (or when someone else shares something that I can immediately respond to)

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

12 Oct 2023, 07:32:4512/10/2023
to Mfccircle
Hello Akshay,

I am really glad you are pursuing this subject with such intensity.  I am sure much good will come of it.

About whether I said Archie Cochrane "would laugh at my [your] insistence that modern medicine is not about RCTs." (?) Possibly.  But I am surprised at the vehemence of the assertion -- and I find it not exactly my style (though I may well have said it out of exasperation :-)

As a doctor, you have a normative understanding of modern medicine.  I think Anant would share this normative view too.  What it should be, and what its best practitioners are doing.  And about medical science too.  This is a kind of view that is realist about criticism, but idealist in orientation.  It is extremely important for the practitioner to keep to this and also to criticize someone strongly when he/she opposes it.  It guards the structure of the discipline/practice and sets a course towards better medicine.  

As a political theorist, and a somewhat realist (I am using both "idealist" and "realist" in the technical sense of being prescriptive or descriptive) one, my way of thinking is a bit different.  My own view of institutions -- like states, religions, disciplinary sciences, and also human sciences like medicine -- is that they are not one single thing.  They are complex entities that speak in many voices, and different voices dominate their shape in different situations and at different moments in history.  It is that complex, let me say, dialectical, whole that I am looking at when I say modern western medicine.

Modern western medicine would look a bit like this to me:

a) Clinical practice
b) Medical education
c) Hospital business
d) Pharmaceutical Industry
e) Disciplinary regulatory bodies like the Cochrane Collaboration.
f) Codes of medical practice and ethics
g) Scientific research
h) Preventive care by state and quasi state bodies

It is not clinical practice, or medical education or scientific research alone.  Each of these large entities listed above affect the way the others work leading to a highly complicated, self-sustaining, non-unitary whole that is stable in the constant dynamism of these entities.  And as of today, the pharma industry,  the hospital business and scientific research with an insistence on a broad EBM base are intent on strongly determining curative practice, preventive care, regulatory bodies and education (whether they succeed or not is what the struggle is about).  

Now if you ask Prathap Reddy (Apollo), or Anji Reddy (Reddy Labs), or any scientist who works in the lab to develop a cure for some disease, or a critic/follower of RCTs whether they are doing medicine, they would say "what else do you think it is?" Medical (cure), Medical (drugs), Medical (science) -- to me "medicine" is the adjective "medical" as it is claimed by the relevant practitioners, and the way in which they interact with one another.  But at the same time, each of the items listed a-h are strong power centres in their own right.  And the hospital business, pharma or scientific research do not kow-tow the other(s) -- they follow different goals and have different strategies and values.  So does the state health department.  

So there is no conspiracy -- rather they are diverse self interested strategies, often at loggerheads with each other, to survive and thrive which interlock forming a stable whole.

Any patient who faces private hospital bills without a clue of why they are so high, and paying them, erasing their life savings gladly, would say that that hospital was providing medicine.  Any doctor who teaches him/herself the latest practices by reading research or taking the shortcut of learning from medical representatives of pharma companies will think of everything as a part of medicine (though not practice).  In any discussion of medical politics, one must be able to evoke all these registers at once, causing unease, a sense of distress among the practitioners leading to a question: what am I doing? What am I subscribing to?  How should I think of this?  My attempts are towards this questioning, but I am likely to fail, given my rather puny voice.  This is why, in spite of my quite drastic disagreements with Jagannath, I respect him.

To me, this is the reality of the elephant of modern western medicine. 

So, rather than a severe misunderstanding, as you are quick to label it, it is a different epistemology of the entity called modern western medicine.

Srivats



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R Srivatsan
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There is only one solution if old age is not to be an absurd parody of our former life, and that is to go on pursuing ends that give our existence a meaning – devotion to individuals, to groups or to causes, social, political, intellectual or creative work … in old age we should wish still to have passions strong enough to prevent us turning in on ourselves. One’s life has value so long as one attributes value to the life of others, by means of love, friendship, indignation, compassion. - Simone de Beauvoir 

Akshay S Dinesh

12 Oct 2023, 09:47:5112/10/2023
to r.sr...@gmail.com, Mfccircle
Hi RS, as before, I agree with you completely and like I said in private before, I think we're saying the same thing.

There's indeed an "idealist" and a "realist". 

I have been that realist from day 1 of medical college (when I received a severe cultural shock) till today. I am frustrated by the practice of medicine. I hate the industry. I've some bitterness inside me every time I see a doctor (be they a friend, family, or stranger).

But I turn idealist only in one specific thread of discussion – one in which modern medicine is criticized from a "realist" politics and contrasted with Ayurveda, Homeopathy and Urinopathy from an "ultra-postmodern-idealist" politics. In that thread, there's always the idea that science itself is to be destroyed. In that thread there's an idea that science can never focus on an individual as a whole, that AYUSH, etc is somehow more "holistic" and "personalized" and that if only we were to go back to AYUSH, it would be better. (Of course, you, RS "believe" in modern medicine and don't say let's go back. But I'm clubbing you with others' views because they continue where you stop.) And then there's a rationalization of this belief in the "alternative" using academic terminologies like knowledge pluralism, epistemic egalitarianism, epistemic uncertainty, politics of knowledge. And finally there's the idea that science is unable to comprehend these alternatives because science itself is weak and unable to go beyond "reductionism".

---

Let me remind you of the chronology.

2019 There's this bulletin of mfc where Ritu Priya, Rakhal Gaitonde, Mohit P. Gandhi, Amitabha Sarkar, Sayan Das, and Prachinkumar Ghodajkar have written:
  • "The new version of PHC needs to recognize the existence,popularity and appropriateness of traditional medicine including home-remedies. But it shouldn't romanticize these systems, and should instead push the scientific community to devise suitable ways to understand and validate these systems and integrate them at the level of knowledge and practice"
    (implying that science hasn't been able to see the "science" of these alternatives)
  • "Using completely different ontologies –or conceptualizations of reality. Thus concepts like tridosha, or yin and yang for example are quite inexplicable in terms of modern bio-medi-cine. The doshas, humors etc., also closely link to the question of balance which is a key aspect of many knowledge systems. The concept of balance points to a more dynamic conceptualization. Further balance also is con-ceptualized in a multi-level way which againchallenges a purely static and universalist view of health"

2021: There's a special issue of Confluences, an Indian Academy of Sciences online platform where Ritu Priya says:
  • "Its proponents argue that all other forms of health knowledge were no longer valid, were either obscurantist or proto-sciences that must be done away with to give way to this ā€˜modern science.’"
    (thereby implying that the view of AYUSH as proto-science is wrong)
  • "When that dominant form is reductionist, the thinking ā€˜by default’ tends to become reductionist for others as well, unless consciously moored in a different mode of thinking. Conventional bio-medicine or allopathy is considered ā€˜reductionist’ and other traditions of health knowledge are characterized as ā€˜holistic.’ While this can be considered so on several counts, all knowledge systems also have several streams within them and are dynamic entities (Sujatha and Abraham 2012). The more holistic traditions, for instance, have attempted to adopt many of the dominant system’s modes of functioning. Their ā€˜pharmaceuticalization’ at the cost of other components of their multi-dimensional measures is an example of their moving in a reductionist direction (Banerjee 2009). Modern medicine is gaining from ā€˜systems biology’ and the biopsychosocial model and thereby becoming less reductionist."
    (wherein the claim is that all these AYUSH things are more "holistic" by default - which I don't see any proof of).
In the same issue there's an essay by Unnikrishnan which I'm seeing only today. But it repeats this reduction of modern medicine into one particular reductionist ideology that's not coming from modern medicine itself:
  • "Based on this, Ayurveda researchers have argued that practice-based evidence and complexity research approaches are the primary methodologies of Ayurveda and the conventional research needs to be supported by whole system research which is more appropriate for traditional systems (Payyappallimana et al. 2020c). Patient management according to Ayurveda is multimodal, planned in the clinical context based on detailed profiling based on patient characteristics, disease stage, severity among others. Management is customized according to patient needs and not based on linear modern pharmacotherapeutics based on the specific biological mechanism or a single target. Such a holistic clinical approach requires novel methodologies for clinical trials."

2022-08-29: Roopa Devadasan makes a public talk in Institute of Public Health: 
  • "We think there is one map for the human body, there isn't. There are multiple maps for the human body. And to see through those maps and follow those maps you have to learn the skills of the system. Which is why the nadi system requires years of understanding it. Which is why Reiki demands a certain kind of practice. Now allopathy teaches you one way. All these teaches you another. Depending on where you stand you will call this alternative or that alternative. Okay? I'll rest my case there."

2022-12-07: you said 
  • "It would seem as if most idiopathic ailments will have causes that are either particular to a small group of people or singular, i.e., that their circumstances are absolutely peculiar to an individual. Perhaps such idiopathic ailments mark the boundaries of a medicine that is based on the statistics of large numbers?"

---

Suffice to say, there is a major misconception about what modern medicine and modern science is and how it is "not able to comprehend" alternative medicine. It is not that modern medicine isn't able to comprehend alternative medicine. It is that it has comprehended it too well and has rejected it.

Kishor Patwardhan has already written about why it is impossible to rescue tridosha and again responded.

Yet there's the thought that these can be rescued and it is the science's fault that they're not being rescued.

Well, then tell me how, won't you? Start with the basics. What is the basis on which someone should "believe" in these theories? Where does one start critically analyzing the claims? How does one differentiate between urinopathy and ayurveda? How do you say my bullshitopathy is wrong and your bullshitopathy is right? Start from there and we can continue this debate. Which is why I stopped the earlier thread and started this thread.

ASD

prab...@yahoo.com

12 Oct 2023, 10:51:5012/10/2023
to Mfccircle
Well put Srivats, imho

On Thursday, 12 October, 2023 at 07:32:49 am IST, R Srivatsan <r.sr...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hello Akshay,

....My own view of institutions -- like states, religions, disciplinary sciences, and also human sciences like medicine -- is that they are not one single thing.  They are complex entities that speak in many voices, and different voices dominate their shape in different situations and at different moments in history.  It is that complex, let me say, dialectical, whole that I am looking at when I say modern western medicine.

dhrvmankad

12 Oct 2023, 12:11:1312/10/2023
to prab...@yahoo.com, Mfccircle
Dear Srivats,

Well put about the dialectics in 'traditional' and 'modern' medicines! 

Dhruv

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prab...@yahoo.com

12 Oct 2023, 13:24:4912/10/2023
to MFC
---- Forwarded message -----
From: Jagannath Chatterjee <jagc...@gmail.com>


I am butting in on everything. May the forum forgive me.

I am on the side of the patient, his struggle to stay alive at minimal cost, mostly using his own efforts and resources at his command. He has come to dread medical interventions that cost the earth and yet do not move towards cures. Aggravations and downslides are considered normal and open the doors for more aggressive interventions. They have the potential to cause serious disease and distress to the entire family on account of costs involved. Even medical insurance is of no help as health is not protected, cures not ensured, and high premiums a yearly drag on income. He has no rights, though rights are defined, and no say of his own once he enters into the domain of medicine. He has to face a one size fits all brand of medicine knowing fully well his own idiosyncrasies and vulnerabilities. He is branded a "difficult case" or hypochondriac if he cites them to the doctor and expresses his fears. He suffers in many ways but cannot express himself as he knows the doctor will rebuff him because his medical education is limited to the body. He does not understand the outcome of the interventions and suspects the doctor does not too. He has no knowledge of self care and how the body heals itself, thanks to the shutting out of traditional wisdom. He comes to this world burdened with disease before he can realize what is wrong and protect himself thanks to rash interventions during the crucial periods of pregnancy, childbirth and childhood - the no medicine land. This precarious situation of the people prompts me to write.

What are we doing to address this? I am sorry to say but according to me the modern behemoth has very little time and no structure to listen to the patient and understand his plight. The patient is the sheep to be culled. In the "a to h" list of Srivats, there is no department for understanding the patient and protecting him and his interests. The big and imposing structure is the juggernaut the people dread. Gandhi's writings on health and his slogan of "customer is king" are forgotten. That parents and women are screaming to be heard is a travesty that ought never to happen. That people on psychiatric drugs are worsening and committing suicide is a reflection of utter lack of concern.

If I have to tolerate modern medicine I would welcome the MBBS doctor once again. I would invite those days when the doctors fought Pharma and adopted the no medicine approach mindful of the basic determinants. They even used placebos. They did not like "public health" measures and were often seen subtly warning the people during drives. I have experienced this brand of medicine at the Air Force base my father was posted in and also in my present city in my childhood days when there were just five private MDs to cater to the health needs of populations. These doctors had the freedom to act according to their intuition and experience. The chronic disease burden was low when they reigned, and they were able to notice their rise ascribing the cause to mismanagement of acutes. 

We cannot deny iatrogenesis that has resulted because of abandoning that structure. If today we complain that we have complex disease then we must be mindful of what is to blame. The way out is not more of the same thing. We need to map what is wrong and work towards restoring health. 

I realize that Big Pharma brand of medicine is closed to reforms. Powerful figures have banged their heads against its impregnable walls and suffered a terrible fate. Thanks to its powers it is here to stay and dominate. It has completely taken over all space including mind space and there is no mention that scientific advances have overtaken its presumptions and support a holistic look of things and the necessity of the basic determinants. How much of today's practice is right? How much of today's practice is scientific? But there is hope as Gandhi had said, big structures inevitably crumble if they do not subscribe to the good of all and become a menace to society.

Not being a part of the structure I have the freedom of expressing myself. The emperor has no clothes, and there is no go but to inform him.

Medicine cannot and should not go against the health of the patient. The practitioners must not forget their vows. The exploitation of the patient should not continue. Health is his birthright. Nature abhors illness and deviation. The body mind complex has a lot of resilience and tremendous corrective abilities. It is being strained to a limit it has never witnessed in any age. The nature of current suffering is horrific and unprecedented. Each person comes to the world to fulfill his innate duties, the destruction of physical, mental, and spiritual health goes against his soul's wish and causes anguish at a level that contributes to disease. Today people are busy struggling with health woes and consequent financial loss. Should this be the gift of a "health care" system to the world? Must it fight competition that has the potential to deliver health and cures just because it is powerful?

Let us remind ourselves that a health care system should;
- Keep the healthy at the peak of their health
- Lead the unhealthy towards health, and 
- Cure the sick.

The health approach must replace the disease approach or else the sixth extinction, whose footsteps are being heard, will put an end to the needless suffering.

Regards,
Jagannath



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jagchat01

12 Oct 2023, 13:26:1712/10/2023
to prab...@yahoo.com, Mfccircle
I am butting in on everything. May the forum forgive me.

I am on the side of the patient, his struggle to stay alive at minimal cost, mostly using his own efforts and resources at his command. He has come to dread medical interventions that cost the earth and yet do not move towards cures. Aggravations and downslides are considered normal and open the doors for more aggressive interventions. They have the potential to cause serious disease and distress to the entire family on account of costs involved. Even medical insurance is of no help as health is not protected, cures not ensured, and high premiums a yearly drag on income. He has no rights, though rights are defined, and no say of his own once he enters into the domain of medicine. He has to face a one size fits all brand of medicine knowing fully well his own idiosyncrasies and vulnerabilities. He is branded a "difficult case" or hypochondriac if he cites them to the doctor and expresses his fears. He suffers in many ways but cannot express himself as he knows the doctor will rebuff him because his medical education is limited to the body. He does not understand the outcome of the interventions and suspects the doctor does not too. He has no knowledge of self care and how the body heals itself, thanks to the shutting out of traditional wisdom. He comes to this world burdened with disease before he can realize what is wrong and protect himself thanks to rash interventions during the crucial periods of pregnancy, childbirth and childhood - the no medicine land. This precarious situation of the people prompts me to write.

What are we doing to address this? I am sorry to say but according to me the modern behemoth has very little time and no structure to listen to the patient and understand his plight. The patient is the sheep to be culled. In the "a to h" list of Srivats, there is no department for understanding the patient and protecting him and his interests. The big and imposing structure is the juggernaut the people dread. Gandhi's writings on health and his slogan of "customer is king" are forgotten. That parents and women are screaming to be heard is a travesty that ought never to happen. That people on psychiatric drugs are worsening and committing suicide is a reflection of utter lack of concern.

If I have to tolerate modern medicine I would welcome the MBBS doctor once again. I would invite those days when the doctors fought Pharma and adopted the no medicine approach mindful of the basic determinants. They even used placebos. They did not like "public health" measures and were often seen subtly warning the people during drives. I have experienced this brand of medicine at the Air Force base my father was posted in and also in my present city in my childhood days when there were just five private MDs to cater to the health needs of populations. These doctors had the freedom to act according to their intuition and experience. The chronic disease burden was low when they reigned, and they were able to notice their rise ascribing the cause to mismanagement of acutes. 

We cannot deny iatrogenesis that has resulted because of abandoning that structure. If today we complain that we have complex disease then we must be mindful of what is to blame. The way out is not more of the same thing. We need to map what is wrong and work towards restoring health. 

I realize that Big Pharma brand of medicine is closed to reforms. Powerful figures have banged their heads against its impregnable walls and suffered a terrible fate. Thanks to its powers it is here to stay and dominate. It has completely taken over all space including mind space and there is no mention that scientific advances have overtaken its presumptions and support a holistic look of things and the necessity of the basic determinants. How much of today's practice is right? How much of today's practice is scientific? But there is hope as Gandhi had said, big structures inevitably crumble if they do not subscribe to the good of all and become a menace to society.

Not being a part of the structure I have the freedom of expressing myself. The emperor has no clothes, and there is no go but to inform him.

Medicine cannot and should not go against the health of the patient. The practitioners must not forget their vows. The exploitation of the patient should not continue. Health is his birthright. Nature abhors illness and deviation. The body mind complex has a lot of resilience and tremendous corrective abilities. It is being strained to a limit it has never witnessed in any age. The nature of current suffering is horrific and unprecedented. Each person comes to the world to fulfill his innate duties, the destruction of physical, mental, and spiritual health goes against his soul's wish and causes anguish at a level that contributes to disease. Today people are busy struggling with health woes and consequent financial loss. Should this be the gift of a "health care" system to the world? Must it fight competition that has the potential to deliver health and cures just because it is powerful?

Let us remind ourselves that a health care system should;
- Keep the healthy at the peak of their health
- Lead the unhealthy towards health, and 
- Cure the sick.

The health approach must replace the disease approach or else the sixth extinction, whose footsteps are being heard, will put an end to the needless suffering.

Regards,
Jagannath


On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 10:51 AM 'Prabir' via mfccircle <mfcc...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
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amar.jesani

12 Oct 2023, 15:11:2512/10/2023
to eGroup MFC
Akshay, Just to stretch this thread further - we just made live a rapid response to Krisha's piece by an Indian American cardiologist. You may like to have a look at it.
 
Comments:
  1. sharada chaitra MD FACC
    American college of cardiology , United States
    11 October 2023

    I am an Allopathic physician of Indian origin. Did Undergraduate medical degree in India and post graduation in internal Medicine in UK and USA. I am Board certified in internal Medicine and cardiology. Have been practicing Medicine for more than 4 decades in Uk and USA.
    I have not studied Ayurvedic medicine in a systematic manner . However ,I know basics of Ayurveda, Sanatana Dharma and Indian Art.
    Dr GL krishna’s discussion is very logical, shows his complete grasp of the material and is very thought provoking. I concur with his opinion fully.
    .It is mind boggling to read some of the views still remaining relevant regarding Human physiology ,cellular genetics etc in Ayurveda as per some of his challengers mentioned above.
    I do not understand how Brilliant, scientific minded Ayurvedic students and Physicians such as Dr GL krishna continue to participate in teaching, Learning and practicing such Nonsensical views of basic Human physiology in Ayurveda. Ayurvedic medicine is an ancient, well thought out (with limited resources available at that time), nevertheless put forward by the Great sages, Sushruta and Charaka who had a piercing vision and mastery in understanding of Human body and Metaphysics ofā€ Being a Humanā€
    Ayurvedic medicine shows a great way of Healthy living, Healthy eating habits, Physical exercise, Mind control, congruence in Mind-Body and soul , and being not in a state of DIS ease rather than Being in a state of’ EASE’.
    Such a great Medicine should be every indian’s pride and joy. It should be treasured and Nurtured. It needs to be nurtured by making important revisions, additions and subtractions.
    I make a Humble request to Academics in Ayurvedic Medicine to revise the curriculum of the Ayurveda and bring it up to date with very well established scientific facts and randomized trials etc and bring it to 21 st century and beyond. There does not seem to be any shortage of enthusiastic and Hard working young minds such as Dr GL krishna to undetake such megaproject. Thanks

________________________________
Amar Jesani
Independent Researcher and Teacher (Bioethics, Public Health), Mumbai.
Editor, Indian Journal of Medical Ethics (https://ijme.in);
Visiting Faculty: *Yenepoya (Deemed-To-Be) University, Mangaluru, India
Web of Science Researcher ID: AAD-2202-2020


r.sr...@gmail.com

13 Oct 2023, 07:54:0913/10/2023
to Mfccircle
What you are pointing to in my a-h listing is astute, Jagannath.  In these multi-systems, the actual listening to the patient and her needs is absent.  Not that she is not heard -- the doctor hears what her complaint is, each research project and drug and procedure has the patient in mind, but it is in a language which is different from hers, and the goal of treatment is now defined in the technical language.  This has always been the case, but the individual struggle of the doctor to hear the patient was far more common.  Today, tests, scans, images have replaced talking.  The calling of medicine has, as you rightly point out, changed over the past 50-60 years.  It is not a new development, but it is a take-off of (modern Western) medical care which has catapulted it into a very large orbit.

But mind you I am criticizing what I cannot do without.  In other words, I need modern medicine, and my complaint or observation or criticism is of one who needs it but also is dissatisfied with it.

Srivats

jagchat01

13 Oct 2023, 08:20:5313/10/2023
to r.sr...@gmail.com, Mfccircle
I was not criticizing you Srivats. I do not criticize anybody because I realize that it is very difficult to get out of the mold. 

Modern medicine is meant for emergency use. Universal use is the problem. It will then always cause emergencies and perpetuate itself because the cause is never addressed and processes terminated without resolving them. Much of the emergencies are a healing effort. One must distinguish between constructive and destructive symptoms and tread with caution. A lifetime of pain is not what you want to gift your subjects.

The body has tremendous healing abilities. It is geared for health and wellness. It does not need anything beyond a harnessed mind, food and an enabling environment. 

When you go deep into the dynamics of the body and try to know the energy structure that drives it an entirely new dimension opens up and you start respecting it. It is not an object to be randomly dissected and operated upon. It is an intelligent energy vortex housing the eternal witness that is wryly watching a drama unfold. In essence all of disease is energy blocks. Quantum physics should guide us, not anatomy and physiology.

Doctor do as much nothing as possible. 

amar.jesani

7 Nov 2023, 16:56:1007/11/2023
to eGroup MFC
I thought it would be better not to give a new subject-line to this conversation, in case any of you is interested, but to insert it under the old subject-line.

A few days back we published a commentary jointly written by three persons from three ayurvedic pharma companies. It was a difficult effort by our working editor who handled it to get it reviewed and then make a judgment. I am pasting abstract with link below:

"Scientific evaluation of Ayurvedic drugs — the use of N-of-1 clinical trials"
Arani Chatterjee, Swaminathan Subramaniam, Sankaranarayanan A
Published online first on November 3, 2023. DOI:10.20529/IJME.2023.067

Abstract  Despite its ancient roots and prominence in India as an accepted alternative to modern medicine, Ayurveda’s growth has been hampered by an inability to carry out clinical studies of its effectiveness and safety using modern scientific methods ― while preserving the core of Ayurveda, which is personalised medicine. In this comment, we propose that the N-of-1 trial be used as a practical method to evaluate Ayurvedic treatments, which is simultaneously consistent with the canons of modern medicine and of Ayurveda. We emphasise the importance of doing this as a practical alternative that will benefit patients. We need not wait to resolve the epistemic inconsistency between Ayurveda and modern medicine to take steps in this direction.

We received an interesting comment on this paper from GL Krishna (Bangalore), who provided a different definition of ayurvedic research - it is a perspective on the epistemiology of ayurveda. the comment is available at the bottom of the full text html of the paper:

Comments:
  1. G L Krishna
    Homi Bhabha Fellow , India
    04 November 2023

    Ayurvedic theories such as the doctrine of doshas need to be demystified, by subjecting them to an evidence-based appraisal, precisely because this demystification is necessary to glean researchable propositions on ayurvedic treatments. Propositions gleaned otherwise would always be subject to valid criticisms from ayurveda physicians. As R H Singh writes in one of his editorials, ā€œAny research which does not take into account the denominators of ayurvedic biology such as Tridosha, Saptadhatu, Ojabala, Agnibala, Ama and srotas, that kind of research cannot be considered as ayurvedic research. It is merely a blind research endeavour.ā€ (Paraphrased from his editorial ā€˜Ayurveda based scientific methodology for research in Ayurveda’; Annals of Ayurvedic Medicine Vol-6 Issue-3-4 Jul-Dec, 2017)

    So, the present article’s view that solving theoretical problems ā€œneed not precede or preclude the evaluation of Ayurvedic treatments using modern methods given the potential utility of Ayurveda interventions,ā€ misses the nuance involved in the subject.

    Until the theories are cogently demystified and theoretical imperatives are clearly understood, it would be difficult to arrive at unanimous treatment protocols that are worthy of being tested.

    During the COVID pandemic, for instance, the AYUSH ministry released a treatment protocol that I found grossly wanting*. I suggested another protocol through a journal editorial**. Such a lack of unanimity in arriving at researchable protocols is, in part, due to an inadequate grasp of ayurveda’s theories and their imperatives.

    * https://confluence.ias.ac.in/why-the-national-ayurveda-protocol-on-covid-management-appears-wanting/

    ** https://articles.theindianpractitioner.com/index.php/tip/article/download/1006/946/


________________________________
Amar Jesani
Independent Researcher and Teacher (Bioethics, Public Health), Mumbai.
Editor, Indian Journal of Medical Ethics (https://ijme.in);
Visiting Faculty: *Yenepoya (Deemed-To-Be) University, Mangaluru, India
Web of Science Researcher ID: AAD-2202-2020


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